Deobrat Mishra- multi-generational sitarist

WM: Today I'm really excited to have amazing musician Deobrat Mishra tuning in today from Benares, India. And Deobrat-ji is a fantastic sitar player and composer and someone who I've had the good fortune to become friends with in my musical journey. 

DM: Thank you Will Marsh and as you're also a great person to be around. So I'm very happy that we met and we had some musical talk and sharing with each other.

WM: Yeah, those are very fond memories for me and I miss that opportunity to travel and usually I would see you here on tour or I would be going to India around this time. And so I'm grateful that at least we can meet in this way and connect here.

DM: You know, this is a safer way.

WM: Yes, I know. And wow. I'm just amazed by your legacy as a seventh generation musician in the Benares gharana… 

DM: Actually I need to correct you. It's more like the eleventh generation because you're beautiful because my family is more than, I think 400 years in Varanasi music tradition. So I think that is more like the eleventh generation.

WM: Wow, you need to update that in your bio because I think that's very important.

DM: I need to update it definitely.

WM: Well thank you for sharing that. And you learn under your Father who is a renowned musician, Pandi Shivnath Mishra. For the listeners, he is just an incredible composer and sitarist and I'm curious you know, as you began your training and your study of sitar what was it like in a typical day kind of in the height of your training with your father? I'm assuming that was in the home and I'm just curious what a day of that was like, to paint us a picture for that time.

DM: Definitely. I want to explain you something about my birth that it was in that time, you know, people were always thinking that son will take the lineage of legacy of family, but I'm sorry, meaning like there are a lot of good women musicians but at that time, there were old thoughts of families. My father was quite open about that. But what happens? Like my father, he used to sing every day in my ear Sa, Re, Ga, Ma, Pa, Dha, Ni, Sa which is Indian solfeggio. You call it do, re, mi, fa, sol, la, ti do and we call it sa, re, ga, ma, pa, dha, ni, sa. So my father used to sing everyday in my ear. So when I was able to speak instead of speaking Papa, Mama or something, I was speaking like “sa, re…” My father was always teaching “sa, re, ga, ma.”

 So he was teaching and I'm very happy that my father also taught my sisters. Also, he taught same way. He taught sitar and one of my sisters has great knowledge of music. So I was near the music, my uncles, my grandfather… I was always also near my maternal grandfather from my mother's side Pandit Kishan Maharaj. I was very young and I stayed in his house many times. I used to go and he was blessing me a lot. So the atmosphere was like if I'm going to my grandfather 's house, there was always talk about music. So he used to ask me “how many hours do you practice?” my grandfather Pandit Kishan Maharaj and Pandit Nanku Maharaj. He was a great tabla player and he lived in Calcutta. So he played with Ustad Ali Akbar Khan, with Pandit Nikhil Bannerjee, with all the greats. Pandit Nanku Maharaj was my grandfather from my mother's side. And so you know, I was always learning in that atmosphere. And they used to ask “now which raga are you learning? Which technique to learn? How many hours do you practice? Did you play it in seven beat rupak or did you play it in jhaptal? So this was how I was. They were playing kind of questioning and so I was learning and at the same time my grandfather from my father's side but with Mahadhru Prasad Mishra and he used to teach me singing a little bit and also I learned some tabla from my mother Pramila Mishra. So this was a great, great thing. So I was always surrounded by great masters. And they used to joke with me about music. So I feel like I first of all, I was so blessed to be born in that family, that lineage. And later, you know, that is a story that I started to become a sitar player but at a young age when I had to learn when I had to start my sitar, my father never pushed me to become a sitar player. So you know, I learned first they give you options. My mother taught me tabla, my grandfather was teaching me singing. And, of course my father brings one day a small sitar to me and says “try it a bit.” And then I liked it very much. So I chose it in that way. I could be a tabla player. I could be a singer. But at that time my father was my idol. So I wanted to become like him. 

WM:  That's beautiful how you share that. I mean, before you even started formally learning an instrument you were in an atmosphere of so much rich musicality and in your family and in your atmosphere. And then I love how you know you weren't expected that you have to play sitar. It had to come from your own interest and resonance and I think that's a great, great piece to share.

DM: I want to share something you know, many times I read a book of some great musicians and they told how hard it is for them with their guru or teacher who used to be teaching them. How they used to tie them to a tree or something and I never had that experience with my father. No. So if I see my memories, I always see my memories as happy memories. They were never been tortured or never been punished or something. Because music my father always says music is all about love. Music is all about peace. How would be it possible for my father to punish me? And he didn’t do that only with me but he did with all his students. He was doing even more, he was more soft to other students. Also soft to me. So he is like a flower, like a rose. So he used to say “music is love.” So don't worry, I'm not going to not going to punish you or anything. But his other thing that makes me respect my father more and more is because he never wanted to make me a copy of someone else even though his copy. He says “son you play your style, how you like, you don't need to be my copy.” What's happening nowadays, I feel is most people, they're trying to be a copy of someone. So I want to say you know, Vilayat Khan saab was not a copy of anybody. Ustad Ali Akbar Khan saab, he was not a copy of anyone. Pandit Ravi Shankar ji was not a copy of anyone. Pandit Nikhil Banerjee was not a copy. There was like three great sitar players but each one had their own styles. You're not copying each other. So what happened nowadays I feel because of copying, the originality is finished. So this has to be very, very important that people understand that Indian classical music especially is not a copy, you cannot learn from YouTube and just play exactly like someone. You make your sitar to Will Marsh. How do you play? Of course you take my technique, maybe you can take my technique, you can take from your guru. But what is the speciality of Will Marsh? That is more important.  Expression! Your expression is more important than you become a copy of someone. Indian classical music is all about how you express yourself. So this is why I want to share this story to people in the West. Sometimes people, they want to ask, how to play sitar. How I should implement it? So this is the way you should implement. You should work with good technique, you should work but play how you feel it.

WM: Wow. It's beautiful how you're sharing that your father, his whole personality has influenced how you play music, right? He's really expressing music as a form of devotion and love. And also encouraging you to bring out your own voice and I think that's an important thing that I am wanting to emphasize such a beautiful legacy that he is passing on and I'm sure that you pass that on to your students and you show music as an example of the love, devotion and something that is sacred to our lives and and brings us joy and that's just really what the world needs right now. So I am giving my pranam to your father Pandit Shivnath Mishra for his personality and his way of being in the world. And that's a great thing.

DM: Thank you, Will for such nice words.

WM: You know, one of the things I've been thinking about with the study of this music, for our listeners- when we study Indian classical music, we never really finish. There's no ending. It's an endless art form. And you started learning, blessed with this rich atmosphere and learning under your father. And I'm wondering if you looking back can kind of take your first 10 years, what was going on? What were you understanding? Then your next 10 years.. What was starting to show that you didn't see? And then your next 10 years… Because I know for myself, I keep seeing new things in different periods and you know, there's a time where we have to get our technique and maybe we're working on speed and then there's a time where, wow, we actually hear the slow part of a raga that we didn't hear before and maybe you can share some of that in your life learning like what are some different points.

DM: Before I'm explaining about all these 10 years things, I want to tell you, in short, that every day, I feel something new. Whenever I play, every day, I feel something new that I learned. It’s like… I played with my father, I played so many concerts with him. Maybe he played 30 or 40 times one raga in those years when I played, but each time I played that raga is different. He was something… Like I prepared myself to be with him on stage. And when I'm there and I say “oh, this time I know.” Because last time I played this but then he played to me a new technique! So I learned that and when you play automatically he would do something new over it. So for me it’s like, amazing! Because this is beyond sitar you know, Pandit Ravi Shankar, my father Pandit Shivnath Mishra, Pandit Nikhil Banerjee,Ustad Vilayat Khan, Ustad Abdul Karim Jaffar Khan saab, all those legends, you know, they were beyond sitar because sitar is something you play there’s technique like gamak... But when you play beyond sitar every day you learn new things. Because everyday a new technique is coming. New new ideas are coming. So like this, I'm learning everyday with my father something new. Suppose he’s teaching me rag yaman for eight years. I’m learning for eight years but every day he played yaman it was different. Whenever you come to class, i he was not repeating so that is what makes him a master, a Pandit. Like sometimes we play one raga, rag yaman. Nowadays young people, you know, they play one raga and they say “oh I'm a Pundit,” they feel so proud. But can you believe for eight years I learned the same raga with my father and each time it was different. The first 10 years I learned only rag yaman. One raga, he didn't change to any other raga. I didn't know for 10 years what is rag bhairavi? I knew the scale, but I didn't know other things. So for 10 years I learned only rag yaman and he says stick with that. And I was performing some places but always rag yaman. So he was not letting me learn another raga. And nowadays, in Indian universities, I'm talking freely today with you because this is something people have to understand. I learned one raga for eight years or nine years, let's say in university when you go you have to do a degree and in one year you have to learn 60 ragas. And so can you believe how much feeling can you make when  you only learn one bandish? This is ashtai, antara and manja and then you go to another rag... Then you learn one or two taans… So this is what has happened. Actually University was made for performing art. Now it has become more theoretical, no more performing art. Why? And a lot of professors need these degrees but why doesn't any university produce a Pandit Ravi Shankar? Why doesn’t any university produce an Alla Rahka Khan saab? Why not? No university produces a Pandit Kishan Maharaj. Why? Because they learn only “na” on tabla na na na na only na. They move always on tabla to get the right tone. I saw my grandfather making “na na” from morning to evening. I thought “what is he doing?” moving his tabla. My father, only playing “sa”, perfecting his stroke. Amazing. So this is how the artistic way should be. So my first ten years I explained to you learning only rag yaman practicing and then another 10 years was more into techniques of course, like I tried to be like other sitar players, fast. Another 10 years. I was more into deepness because I wanted to become not the fastest sitar player, I wanted to become a real sitar player. It's like, I don't want to show off, which many people are trying to do. But I try to make people sit in the audience and they close their eyes, not watching me. And I will tell you one example. There was a concert of a Varanasi musician, a great musician. Pandit Rajan and Sajan Mishra, my family person, and he was doing “de ra na……” holding a long note, and then people clapped. And he took the mic and he says in Varanasi, nobody claps during alap. They should close their eyes and listen. Because he’s saying that you are only watching you're not learning deep. Understand? Because they are only just trying to clap, but not understanding deepness.

WM: Yeah. It's not a sport to watch. It's something to experience. To listen.

DM: And Varanasi, my city is not all about it. Varanasi is the city. Many great musicians tell their children “go to Varanasi. If you are successful there then you will be successful all around the world” Because even the rickshaw man in Varanasi is also a musician, has a musical mind. They used to say.

WM: Well, now we're talking about Varanasi and I'm wondering if you can share a little bit about what makes the Banaras gharana unique and the qualities of your style and the Banaras gharana specifically…

DM: The Benares Gharana is based on the singing style, so in singing you find four different styles of singing, which you also find in my sitar. My style is singing style. My sitar has all these four singing styles; one is dhrupad, second is khyal, the third is to thumri and fourth is tappa. These four styles you find in Varanasi singing and that makes it very special because if you ask any singer they also sing dhrupad. Because some people are singing only one style. Some people are only singing khyal, some people are only singing dhrupad and someone is thumri and tappa, you know like this. But in Varanasi, all these four things you find and that makes it really really special. And especially the thumri part in Varanasi is amazing. I have heard so many great, great thumri singers singing. They sing for two hours “abana bajao shyman.” Just these words “abana bajao shyman” for three hours and each time their singing is different, never repeating it. So can you believe how much knowledge they have? They never repeat for three hours the same notes.

 You find this thing in my sitar playing. Now that is ras and Benares is a city of ras. So this ras means emotions. “Bana” and “ras” means  that emotions is already made here. Bana means already made and “ras” means emotion so all emotion you find fully inside this city.

WM: That's a great description. I've never heard that meaning of Benares, wow.

DM: Yes, on this day, they say “suba hai Banaras” the morning of Benares. If you walk in the ghats, you find musicians playing music, practicing on the ghats, wrestlers are doing their exercise on the ghats. Meditation, yogi's in some corner are sitting… So each second you're walking, something new you are seeing there. And for music, this is a very important city. Because if you go to Bombay, Delhi other cities, those cities are actually very, very fast now. It's like if you go to Bombay, you feel like you're in New York, or you're in Paris. But Benares is still the old India, you see. So also music in Varanasi is old India. Because although we like to do fusion, I do fusion but at same time when I play classical, I'm classical. I don't mix my fusion part in classical music. That means I do classical part in my fusion but I don't mix when I do classical part. Some people when they do fusion they mix that into their classical music. They do all this kind of techniques, but I try not to. If you do this in Varanasi, the public will throw you out from the stage.

WM:  This is great because what I'm hearing you share is how you're balancing the purity of your classical style and your fusion is able to use your knowledge of classical music and go into another direction. but when you're performing classical, it's remaining kind of this pure, you know, basis. And this is something I want to talk about because for our listeners, Deobratji has a group called Trio Benares with saxophonist Roger Hanschel, who is from Denmark. Is that right? 

DM: From Germany.

WM: Okay, he's a German saxophonist, excuse me, and the trio is just an amazing sound and such a nice blend of melody and rhythm. And I want to ask you what makes a good fusion and what makes this blend successful? I've been listening a lot to your albums with Trio Benares and I just feel like it is a successful combination of the styles. What made that successful and why does what I am hearing sound so good to me?

DM: Yes Will, it's a very nice question you’ve asked, because this question has been asked many times to us and we always reply in some nice way, which is we play fusion, not confusion. Because many people take saxophone, they use guitar, they use tabla, they use a lot of instruments, but when they are on stage, it's all confusing. There are some people I'm saying. But what we decided as Roger is a very, very prominent artist in Germany, he won so many awards… And he searched for me to work with Indian musicians, he searched online, he searched for me somewhere I don't know where. And he called me one day and he says, “I want to come to India and I want to learn some Indian classical raga on saxophone” and I say, “Well, I’ve never done that. But of course, you can come and learn with me.” And he came to India and he studied raga and he wanted to learn the meend technique, which you don't have in saxophone actually, bending on the saxophone. So he learned this bending. Because on saxophone, mostly you can barely make a little with your mouth, but you cannot do full bending and he learned a technique as we sat together. So if you see in our fusion, you feel it's a different, it's not like playing tic tac tac (staccato notes), it's more like melody, more like emotions, more like feeling and in our compositions we do not try to use saxophone or sitar or tabla as a sound. We try to make a sound together. If there is some composition, no matter how difficult it is for saxophone, or for sitar we try to manage to play together because something which is easier for saxophone to play on notes on saxophone can be very hard to play on sitar. But if you see, I did work on so many songs which is really unbelievable to follow on that. I did it because it was challenging for me and I love to have challenges. I like to, you know, do something new and I want to do something new which is a unique thing. So he gave me a composition which was a very unique thing. Because one note you find in the low octave, one in the middle because he composed with orchestra, you know he composed for Western orchestra so he composed in that way. But for sitar it’s like jumping all over and it’s very difficult, but you know, I did it. So that's why this group became very unique. When I would say you know, the band Shakti also inspired us with John Mclaughlin and and Zakir Hussain, I listened in the 70’s to their CDs somewhere and when I listened to that, I thought one day I will make some music like that. I made many music, but I was never satisfied until I found three openers. And once I had this group, I say yes, I want to do because Roger is a very, very special man, a special musician, and to work, I love to work always with a special musician because music is not a hobby for him. Music is work for him, because I work with Indian musicians and also with Western musicians. So when I work with Western musicians who have hobby and I have my profession as a musician, it's very hard to work with because okay, it's my hobby, but I want to work at a high level. So when raga Roger Hansel came to me. It's a perfect match. We had,

because he wants to do his best, I want to do my best. My tabla player wants to do his best. So this was the best combination based group. So when you say how it works for you how this thing come, but I say this is unique because we three, you know, work really hard to get it. And I want to tell you one composition called “Rajas”.

WM: Yes. I believe I was listening to that just now.

DM: And I tell you, it took me two years to understand that composition. If you hear that composition, you would see how difficult that composition is. Because I didn't know where's the one, where's what and I was so frustrated. How can I do this? How can I? And he gave me two years before this composition.

WM: So he composed this piece? Roger had this composition and he brought it to you?

DM: Yes, the composition “Rajas” is composed by Roger and so yeah, and it took me two years to understand when I learned the first part I forgot the second part, because it was difficult because and this composition, I have to work all my composition in the low octave. And then come with middle or high. It's like each second the whole note is changing.

WM: You’re jumping, moving a lot.

DM: You’re jumping each second so that was so difficult for a sitar player. I think Roger’s is one of the hardest compositions.

WM: One of the things I like about the albums I've heard by Trio Benares is that it seems to take a nice balance of of you know Roger’s compositional mind and your Indian sensibility and that to me is what gives it a nice balance and of course having Prashant Misha on tabla is just a fantastic you know, rhythmic portion. And so it seems like you know Roger will bring some compositions and ideas and then you will also do the same to Roger and together you have created your albums and compositions like that.

DM: And I want to tell you that Roger is the first ever saxophone player in the world who played Banarsi Kajari. Kajari is one of the famous tunes in Banaras which was made famous also by Ustad Bismillah Khansaan, the shenai player (Ustade Bismillah Khan). So Roger Hansel was the first saxophone player who I taught him to play traditional kajari on saxophone and whenever he played in Varanasi, everybody said, “how is it possible to play this thing? A western music musician can play this so perfect kajari?” Because the movement of kajari is so lovely. And the rhythm.

WM: It's something that yeah, is like, it's not like a straight rhythm for our listeners. It's something that you kind of just have to feel it and you can't just break it down. 

DM: Why? Because the whole of Banaras, most of the compositions are groovy. It’s because they work as a wave of Ganga (the Ganges River). So the old compositions, many are 100’s of years old. They were sitting in front of Ganga and they saw the wave. [Sings a melody] See, it’s like you are sitting on boat, the rocking. So that's why most of the songs from Benares are like a wave of the Ganga.

WM: Wow. Well, that's amazing. That was something I was wondering you know, how did it start with with Roger Hanschel and how did you guys start working together and I think it's just a great story of two musicians from different cultures, both with you know, the same level of devotion coming together and making something new which you seem to like this challenge in this. This freshness… What is something that you're thinking about now that is new? Are you composing right now? Is there a new album that you're thinking about or what is kind of the next project for you? 

DM: I have been working with several projects so this is going to be my first singing album. And that is for relaxing. All my mantra CDs are coming up. So this is releasing in the USA. With Sounding of the Planet this is going to be released and that is I'm making a mantra Gayatri mantra, which is one of the hardest mantras they say, but is one of the healing mantras. And there is Ganesha mantra and there is a Durga mantra. And there are few Shiva mantras. But I composed it in a different way. So it's not like you will ever hear because I compose in raga like, I composed Jay Ganesh. I also wrote my own composition and at the same time I composed it in rag Darbari. Because each raga affects a lot of people. So I try to make people happy in this Corona time. It's this when people are really needing peace, really needing power, really needing energy. So this CD will be a gift to them, that they can hear and they can get you know energized and they can get out of this situation mentally and they can get power so they can feel you know, happiness.

WM: Wow, I'm excited for this one. When can we look forward to seeing this album and how can we find it?

DM: I'm sure you will find I think next month is going to be released. And it will be on Amazon and iTunes and everything… And people can also visit my website if they want to come to India later on they can visit my school in Varanasi so they can also visit and to get information about Banaras music.

WM: Wow. Well, you know this year is unique and I know normally you would be touring internationally. And I'm curious you've had a long career as a performing artist internationally starting with your father, I believe since 1994 touring in Europe, and I'm wondering from what you've seen in the West, Europe and the USA, has the audience changed? Is it growing? Is it is that is something that you've noticed in this, you know, over 20 year period that you have been touring in other parts of the world or maybe it's easier to just go specifically with say Europe versus USA but I'm just wondering what you have seen in the audience because you know, you're bringing a different art form from India, to these other countries and other cultures and I'm curious what you've seen change in your time.

DM: I would not say it's a change because the audience is always liking to hear something you know, like Indian music and relaxed music or something. But what I see is that the greats like after Pandit Ravi Shankar Ji is gone and Ustad Ali Akbar Khan, I see that the new generation is coming little. They are more into kirtan, you know. The new generation, which is very nice because it's also healing. That's why I made the CD also, but it's same for classical music. I see that they need to fill the place because I feel that there are many good musician in India, but you know, I think there should be somebody like a new Pandi Ravi Shankar or Ali Akbar Khansaab and I'm thankful to Ustad Zakir Hussain who did so, much to Indian classical music in West. For Europe. I would say Europe is very different because Europe has, very much you know, like, music tradition and all like, you know, if you go to Vienna and I'm going to say in USA they also have music tradition. I'm not saying they don’t…

WM: But Europe has a longer history of music and the arts.

DM: Yeah. And in Europe, there are a lot of university music schools and a lot of things that I'm doing there are many, like I was going to teach in Milan conservatory and other places. So I'm doing a lot of work in Europe and with European musicians, but what I want to do in America, I want to, I started to regain because I used to come a lot in the US and it was great for seven, five years. And then I started again my tour in the US, but what I want to do, I want to do you know something like what Pandit Ravi Shankar ji has done like working with such a great musicians and I feel that I can do that because I I feel that in the 70’s when Indian classical music people were saying in India, “oh why is Panditji going to the West and teaching there?” and all these things many musicians in India were talking about, but his vision was broad, his vision was big. He wanted to make Indian classical music, Indian music globally. He wanted and he did. That is my vision. My vision is like people asking me “Hey, do you do less concerts in India?” I say in India a lot of musicians are playing. But if I'm able to do it, I'm working because I'm able to do it with Roger Hanschel. I'm able to do with Roberto Ozer from Italy piano player I'm working with other other many, many projects I'm doing so because I am able to do and I feel full happy to do that. Yes, I'm not feeling like oh, you know, I should not do that. I have to be open. I'm open for that. And at same time I already explained to you before that, when traditional music comes I'm always traditional. But when is fusion or when I'm working with jazz, or world music. I'm trying to be open and present on stage. This is very important for musicians. That’s what Zakir Hussain does, Ali Akbar Khansaab and my father. On stage he worked with John handy with other musicians. So you know he was present and not here and there on stage. You have to be present, you have to make your part well, which I try to do on stage. I try to listen to others not only playing my part, but also listening to others and give a little bit higher touch.

WM: Yes, that’s the art of being a great performer, it is very important.

DM: And I'm happy also Will that you are doing good on sitar and keep it up. 

WM: Thank you. 

DM: You're making music work and popular in your areas. So that's what it needed to make, you know more interest of music and I'm always there whenever people need me for recordings for anything. If they need any information. I'm there to help people and that it should be. Artists should be not feeling, you know, as you say you're traveling a lot and doing this, but I'm open and I'm open to talk with people and give my advice or learning from them also, it's not only giving advice but I'm learning from you sometime. I learned from you what you give me some good advice. I always take it. So this is the good thing of and how to become a good musician. I want to from your channel, from your video conferencing or I want to say that if you want anybody to become good artists, they have to be open. You have to be, you know, taking good advice from anyone. No matter if it comes from child age of five years old, boy young boy or child or it comes from a 70-year old senior person. If you have good advice you should take it.

WM: Wow. Well that's wonderful. That's usually my last question is some advice and your advice is to be open to learning from everyone that you work with and encounter and it's been a real pleasure speaking with you, Deobrat-ji and we're looking forward to this album release that's coming up. Can you remind us the name of the album?

DM:  It's a Mantra CD by Deobrat Mishra.

WM: Mantra by Deobrat Mishra, so be on the lookout for this on all streaming platforms.

DM: Yeah and it is also featuring the musician Dean Evanson who is playing a little flute on the album.

WM:  Some flute, beautiful and for our listeners who may want to reach out and connect with you can you share your website with us?

DM:  www.deobratmishra.com

WM: You can reach out to Deobratji in person and wow it's been another inspiring conversation with a great musician here. I will see you guys next time. Thank you again Deobrat-ji.

DM: Thank you.